Curse

Bryant Again · Aug 28, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys

Is this true? I've always assumed AI is the same for all the heroes and dependant on the skill bar you give them.

Not too sure. I've had both Zhed and Sosuke and Vekk at one point in my party as SF (I was bored) and they all seemed to be using the skills in the right order and what not.

With Dunk and Talk, sometimes I get bored with one or the other, so I'll have them set up as the same build and switch them out. I seem to do fine, but I haven't paid much attention.

EternalTempest · Aug 28, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys

Is this true? I've always assumed AI is the same for all the heroes and dependant on the skill bar you give them.

My friends 1st noticed this with using both Olias vs Master of Whispers.
Same build, same stats, Olias was a much better MM then Masters was.
On the flip side, Masters was a better SS then Oias.

I'm not sure if it applies to all the hero's but from what I've seen when you have duplicate jobs, the AI's between the two seem to be different.

I do think builds that are designed to spam (take fire, engery skill, spam fire attacks) can work well but when it comes to other skills where order or target is more important there can be some difference.

Taki · Aug 28, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

This is a poorly presented and weak argument Lyra. You can do better than this

zwei2stein · Aug 28, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Anyway, Why the hell would be Jin superior?

It just matter of choice. Two eles or ele and ranger.

Only possiblity when Jinn would be CLEARLY superior would be if you were unable to run two ele heroes.

Just a choice.

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

No. Because most of people who will play GWEN have already made their choices in NF and have had to live(and die) by them.

Assumption. :P

Quote:

Those who haven't should choose which hero based on their needs.

But this is really less about NEED than personal preference.

My argument that Jin is the one to choose is because having Vekk as a mandatory hero removes the need to choose an elementalist early on.

You may WANT to choose Sousuke over Jin, but Ive yet to see anyone bring up any clear examples as to why it is other than personal choice.

Fenix comes close to an argument saying that Elementalists are superior, but since he doesnt cite any sort of examples and just rambles/trolls on, it doesnt count.

Somebody counter me..im bored at work.

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 28, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Jin win, just because I don't like male human ele.

Now if I can only get jin's sunspear armor...

MithranArkanere · Aug 28, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Who cares? I get all 25 with all 10 characters...

Wow! 250 heroes!

I still like more the TV series... I miss Hiro Nakamura...

fenix · Aug 28, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I could argue with stats and number and such, but I'm falling asleep...and it's 1:30am. If this thread isn't closed to too huge for me to bother with in the morning, I'll post some stuff. Mostly stuff concerning DPS and such. But I'm used to playing with a guy who uses a Ranger himself, so we just run 4 Ele heroes, 2 Monk heroes, myself as War, and him as Ranger. Either 4x Searing Flames or 4x Savannah, depending on the location. If there are lots of casters, he does Broadhead, if not, he does just damage. I do Dslash with some team support, but usually we run this general build (which underpins most of my argument, since Ranger heroes cannot run bars like this). We run 2 copies of this, but the monks differ.

E/Mo: Searing, Glowing, GoLE, Mark of Rodgort, Heal Party, XXXX, Fire Attune, Res Chant (Cure Hex was the XXXX last weekend, and will be when they unlock it again. 76 heal + hex removed? yes please)

E/Mo: Searing, Glowing, GoLE, Glyph Sac, Meteor Shower, Heal Party/Aegis, Fire Attune, Res Sig

Mo/E: Shield of Deflection, Gift of Health, Dismiss Condition, Cure Hex, Protective Spirit, Reversal of Fortune, Shield of Absorbtion, GoLE

HEAPS of support in the form of 2x Heal Party (or 2x Aegis depending on the zone), we will soon use 2x Cure Hex which completely removes hex problems, and we have 1x Hard Res, 1x Met Shower, and of course SF + Mark Rodgort. Huge DPS, excellent defense. Each. I usually bring Save Yourselves! and There's Nothing To Fear! although as of late I haven't needed either, so I just bring damage...

So you see, one main thing is that Jin cannot use a support bar, as the energy and such is not good for it. Which is why a 2nd ele is superior. And if I'm playing alone, I use 3 Eles, with hench monks, as the defense I can get out of the 3 eles (2x HP 1x Aegis, visa versa) is more than enough to make up for shoddy Henchman bars.

Red Sonya · Aug 28, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

The power of the elementalist heroes cometh. I can't wait to get all 3 heroes setup after GWEN launches. Sousuck, Zhed and Vekk and myself playing either W/E (I have built the ultimate Fire Warrior) or E/M omg what a storm of fire to rain down upon my victums. It is kind of sad though that my rangers and warriors and mesmers and rit(s) and paragons and dervishers and most especially the weakly puny assassins will never get to play within my groups except maybe when I am bored and want to watch us get slaughtered. It's already hard to breakup my wonderful monk and mm/ss necro and SF ele I have created. But, I will occassionally switch out and try two necros or two ele's just for a simple change without losing any damage power. They keep nerfing my SF ele's though and I'm getting kinda tired of that.

Do you guys realize the power of an SF Ele and a Discord Necro together? Look at the cost of Discord. I built my Necro up as Death/Curse 15/13 (using two major runes instead of a superior and minor) and use Insidious Parasite and/or Barbs for his hex. It is unbelieveable mass damage with these two working together I don't even have to fight. That silly elite golem will never do the damage Discord can do and the cost is unbelieveablely low. I nearly dropped my teeth when I saw that cost for such a wonderful high damage spell and full armor penetration. You should see what a W/N using discord and barbs can do in FA. hehe

EternalTempest · Aug 28, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Here is part of my research and Hero default Builds, and the number of skills in each attribute. Note - Spelling error's.

War

Koss - NF War - 2 Sword, 2 Tatics, 1 Str, 1 Unlinked
Goren - NF War - 2 hammer, 2 tatics, 1 str, 1 unlinked
Jora - EN War - 3 Sword, 2 Tatics, 1 Str, 1 Unlinked

Monk

Dunkoror - NF Monk - 4 Healing, 2 Unlinked
Tahlokora NF Monk - 4 Protect, 2 Unlninked
Ogdm Stone Healer - 3 Heal, 2 Unlniked

Dervish

Melonni - NF Derv - 2 Mysticism, 1 Scthe, 1 Earth, 1 Unlinked
Kahmu - EN Derv - 4 Myst, 2 Scthe, 1 Unlinked

Ranger

Acolyte Jin - NF Ranger- 2 Expertise, 2 Wilderness, 1 marks, 1 Unlinked
Madrid the Sly - NF Ranger - 3 Wildernes, 1 Marksman, 1 expert, 1 unlinked

Ele

Acolyte Souske - NF Ele - 4 Fire, 1 Engery, 1 Earth, 1 Unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof - NF Ele - 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlniked
Vekk - EN Ele - 4 Air, 1 Water, 1 Earth, 1 unlniked.

Necro

Olias - NF Necro - 2 Death, 3 Blood, 1 Unlinked
Master of Whipsers - NF Necro - 3 Cure, 2 Blood, 1 Unlinked

Assasin

Zenmai - NF Sin - 2 Dagger, 2 Shadow, 1 Critical, 1 unlinked

Messmer

Norgu - NF Messmer - 2 Illusion, 2 Inspire, 1 Dom, 1 unlinked

Para

General Morgan - NF Para - 2 Command, 2 Spear, 1 leader, 1 unlinked

Ritualist

Razah - NF Rit - 2 Chanel, 1 Spawn, 1 Restore, 1 Unlinked
Xander - EN Rit - 3 Chanel, 2 Rest, 1 Unlinked

This is just the default setups of what type of skills anet pre-loaded them with and may be the indication of what there better at.

ValaOfTheFens · Aug 28, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You may WANT to choose Sousuke over Jin, but Ive yet to see anyone bring up any clear examples as to why it is other than personal choice.

There's no argument for needing Jin over Sosuke. Is there any proof you need a Ranger hero earlier on as opposed to an Ele hero? You counter your own argument. You prefer Jin because you can get Vekk earlier than Sosuke. Thats your personal choice and as such it isn't gospel for everyone else.

zwei2stein · Aug 28, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

lyra_song:

Besides, this thread gets very close to be troll. Bored at work? lol.

Anyways what about you producing argument why E+R is cleeeeearly superior ro E+E.

Whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Here is part of my research and Hero default Builds, and the number of skills in each attribute. Note - Spelling error's.

...

This is just the default setups of what type of skills anet pre-loaded them with and may be the indication of what there better at.

You miss one very important thing: There is no proof that anet actually preloaded heroes with skills that are there to imply what they are goot at.

They might have just as well just give them builds they found to be good starting point for customization and builds decent enough to work fine even if player does not edit them at all or does not have any unlocks.

EternalTempest · Aug 28, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

lyra_song:

Besides, this thread gets very close to be troll. Bored at work? lol.

Anyways what about you producing argument why E+R is cleeeeearly superior ro E+E.

Whatever.

You miss one very important thing: There is no proof that anet actually preloaded heroes with skills that are there to imply what they are goot at.

They might have just as well just give them builds they found to be good starting point for customization and builds decent enough to work fine even if player does not edit them at all or does not have any unlocks.

I have seen Olias vs Whispers and the same setup/build with MM and SS.
Olias is better MM, Whsipers is better SS when you try the same builds w/ the hero's.

Vamis Threen · Aug 28, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

There are some builds heroes can use better than others, but this is due to the nature of the builds rather than them having different AI.

In NM I use a pretty standard SF on Zhed and Sousuke, I've watched them cast and they handle it the same way. Zhed will often move to the left or right or forward of Sousuke and the rest of the casters. In the same way Morgahn will move further forward closer than Sogolon (but this doesnt really count as they have different builds). So there may be minor differences in the AI's movement preferences but not in skill utilization.

I agree the OP's point is itself redundant. The existence of any third hero for a profession doesnt make the additional hero any more redundant than the existence of the second made the first. Most people will get all the heroes anyway, it's pretty easy if you beat the game. I seem to have got two heroes for free in that daft 1v1 game at the weekend. I don't want them, but it does add versitility.

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Trolling? I have a statement that is related to the game. Its not a sensitive topic. Its not insulting anyone or attempting to stir negative emotions.

At most im trying to incite some people here to come up with reasons to counter my statements. Which is fun. Thanks Fenix.

I need this cause it keeps my mind working properly. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

There's no argument for needing Jin over Sosuke. Is there any proof you need a Ranger hero earlier on as opposed to an Ele hero? You counter your own argument. You prefer Jin because you can get Vekk earlier than Sosuke. Thats your personal choice and as such it isn't gospel for everyone else.

The following is not personal preference:

Vekk is a mandatory Hero. Sousuke is not.
Both are elementalists. Both are easy to get (more or less).
If you do not choose Sousuke you get Jin.
The only other Ranger in Nightfall is Margrid, who is also a "choice" character.
There are redundancies in the game with the heroes since theres multiple copies for some of the professions. (I never say that redundancy is bad, but its still a redundancy).

Now...that being said. E+R is NOT superior to E+E, but rather having E already removes the need for another E so early in the game. R is not superior as a class (never said that). Also note, i never say there is ANY need for a Ranger.

Choosing E again becomes a personal choice. Thats when superiority of classes and preference of skills and builds comes in.

HawkofStorms · Aug 28, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Eh, for all we know, the Charr ranger hero will be manditory and the NEXT hero to get in GW:EN. Heck, since it was a preview event, somethings might be out of order and you might get him before you get Vekk (like in Factions, entering Pogmai Valley from the marketplace). So for all you know, this arguement is invalidated anyway. Wait until the retail version goes live before making assumptions based on the preview weekend.

zwei2stein · Aug 28, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

I have seen Olias vs Whispers and the same setup/build with MM and SS.
Olias is better MM, Whsipers is better SS when you try the same builds w/ the hero's.

How many of /whatever/ did you do to assess their abilities correctly? Did you do enough to minimize randomnes of spawns and your human movement?

Did you give them really /equal/ conditions? Same weapon, runes, insignia? Same enemies aggroed? Enemies aggroed in same patterns?

If you did only few tests your results are going to be very biased - especially by your own predjustice. Its easy to notice stupid stuff on Whispers if you start with idea that he is bad mm and notice accidental good placement of ss if you think he is good at that.

---

You still provide anecdotal evidence, not hard facts.

Derive actually good tests.

Like:

give both Barbs with same rank in curses and start whacking one dummy with physical damage. See which of them reacts faster and starts to cast barbs.

Give each of them bone fiend, botm and heal area same rank for death magic and healing prayers. see which one of them gets up amount of minions to limit fasters while you kill dummines with whatever, then examine frequency of spamming botm/heal area and notice which one of them looses minion to degen faster.

do both tests ate least 32 times.

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Eh, for all we know, the Charr ranger hero will be manditory and the NEXT hero to get in GW:EN. Heck, since it was a preview event, somethings might be out of order and you might get him before you get Vekk (like in Factions, entering Pogmai Valley from the marketplace). So for all you know, this arguement is invalidated anyway. Wait until the retail version goes live before making assumptions based on the preview weekend.

Unlike the other preview events, we were allowed to KEEP things we unlocked this past weekend. Vekk and Ogden have been unlocked for my account. My guildmates have Jora and Xandra already.

And regardless....you show that the Charr hero is NOT gained early on, which is one of the stipulations of the situation.

Taki · Aug 28, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The following is not personal preference:

Vekk is a mandatory Hero. Sousuke is not.
Both are elementalists. Both are easy to get (more or less).
If you do not choose Sousuke you get Jin.
The only other Ranger in Nightfall is Margrid, who is also a "choice" character.
There are redundancies in the game with the heroes since theres multiple copies for some of the professions. (I never say that redundancy is bad, but its still a redundancy).

As someone mentioned before, most people going on to GW:EN have already beat NF and have all the heroes which proves the original statement false. In the good spirit of not rightfully dismissing the argument, let's take it that the player only plays as far in NF to get either Souske or Jin and then up to the preview portion of GW:EN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Now...that being said. E+R is NOT superior to E+E,

If E+R is not superior to E+E
And E+E is not superior to E+R
Then either combination chosen will be personal preference, i.e. there is no 'need' to pick Jin or Souske.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

but rather having E already removes the need for another E so early in the game.

If no need exists, how can you remove it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

R is not superior as a class (never said that). Also note, i never say there is ANY need for a Ranger.

You said Jin is cleary superior. If you meant to say a superior choice, even that is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Choosing E again becomes a personal choice. Thats when superiority of classes and preference of skills and builds comes in.

Choosing either E or R again is a personal choice as above. But you must be crazy bored to state a point, argue said point, then counter and defeat that very same argument.

EternalTempest · Aug 28, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

How many of /whatever/ did you do to assess their abilities correctly? Did you do enough to minimize randomnes of spawns and your human movement?

Did you give them really /equal/ conditions? Same weapon, runes, insignia? Same enemies aggroed? Enemies aggroed in same patterns?

If you did only few tests your results are going to be very biased - especially by your own predjustice. Its easy to notice stupid stuff on Whispers if you start with idea that he is bad mm and notice accidental good placement of ss if you think he is good at that.

---

You still provide anecdotal evidence, not hard facts.

Derive actually good tests.

Like:

give both Barbs with same rank in curses and start whacking one dummy with physical damage. See which of them reacts faster and starts to cast barbs.

Give each of them bone fiend, botm and heal area same rank for death magic and healing prayers. see which one of them gets up amount of minions to limit fasters while you kill dummines with whatever, then examine frequency of spamming botm/heal area and notice which one of them looses minion to degen faster.

do both tests ate least 32 times.

I plan to test further as soon as I get Vekk back with a Air build that been a work in progress for the 1vs1 norn torunment. (air spike, emangement, and melee blinding, especially to find our how the ele(s) choose the opponet to blind). Using the different ele hero's.

I think, will double check I was mentioned researching this what I've posted is what I've seen, so far. You may be right, but I'm still looking in to this. I wanted to get out the impressions / things I've noticed, to bounce ideas off people as well.